Google Algorithm Updates - 2024 Ongoing Discussion

[BakerStreet]

Sam Altman makes a good point. You need to bet that the algorithms development will jump ahead in leaps and bounds. This is for Google or open ai. The next Google update is going to be even worse.

 

[CCarter]

The next Google update is going to be even worse.

This Google update was about links and anchor text, as they all were.

You guys are mixing dooms day scenarios.

A.I. isn't even intelligence, it's us better interfacing with the computer. It's like the invention of the mouse, now we aren't keyboard dependent. Did the mouse kill computer? No but it did liberate us from the keyboard quite significantly.

Then touchscreen liberated us from sitting down in front of a computer to get work done, we can write and work using our mobile now.

All "A.I." is allowing us to do is organize the data already there - better, and give us a better interface with it. We can "talk" to the computer now, ask questions, and it will give us answers based off of datasets it has within it.

It's not alive. It's ran by humans. It's just the next dawn of the next interfacing with computers. You still need to have imagination and intelligence to ask the right questions.

And ALL that has nothing to do with the latest Google Updates.

These are 2 dooms day scenario you guys are conjecturing together.

And over a decade ago I told you guys to get off Google's tits, so... Why did you guys wait so long? Path of least resistance.

I guarantee you that if you looked at your backlinks you'll magically find those toxic zero traffic links from scrapers and spammy link in them. I can bet my first born on that.

And there is the other side of "A.I." with blackhats going nuts with A.I. content, and winning RIGHT NOW. What's the difference with their domains and yours? Their domains are brand new, with no toxic backlinks.

Come on guys, it's starting to get a bit much.

Even John's trolling ya:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779026339242111160

 

[BakerStreet]

This Google update was about links and anchor text, as they all were.

You guys are mixing dooms day scenarios.

A.I. isn't even intelligence, it's us better interfacing with the computer. It's like the invention of the mouse, now we aren't keyboard dependent. Did the mouse kill computer? No but it did liberate us from the keyboard quick significantly.

Then touchscreen liberated us from sitting down in front of a computer to get work done, we can write and work using our mobile now.

All "A.I." is allowing us to do is organize the data already there - better, and give us a better interface with it. We can "talk" to the computer now, ask questions, and it will give us answers based off of datasets it has within it.

It's not alive. It's ran by humans. It's just the next dawn of the next interfacing with computers. You still need to have imagination and intelligence to ask the right questions.

And ALL that has nothing to do with the latest Google Updates.

These are 2 dooms day scenario you guys are conjecturing together.

And over a decade ago I told you guys to get off Google's tits, so... Why did you guys wait so long? Path of least resistance.

I guarantee you that if you looked at your backlinks you'll magically find those toxic zero traffic links from scrapers and spammy link in them. I can bet my first born on that.

And there is the other side of "A.I." with blackhats going nuts with A.I. content, and winning RIGHT NOW. What's the difference with their domains and yours? Their domains are brand new, with no toxic backlinks.

Come on guys, it's starting to get a bit much.

Even John's trolling ya:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779026339242111160

Here's what I think is going to happen in 5 core updates. When someone searches for "best air fryer" it won't be an informational query but treated as a transactional query. They're not looking for air fryer reviews but looking to buy the best air fryer on the market. Then Google's LLM will generate text telling the user what air fryer to buy, based upon the spider reading user reviews of air fryers on e-comm sites. Then the LLM gives the user Google's affiliate link for that air fryer on an e comm site or links to that air fryer being sold on Google Ads. Informational queries will be a thing of the past.

So, yes, you're right @CCarter LLMs will allow humans to interface better with technology. It'll also disrupt anyone who is a writer or earns a living from content marketing. You're also right that we should have left Google 10 years ago and I regret not learning PPC earlier. I have a really big ego and just want to prove people wrong and don't want to be wrong, but really, it's time to move on. Its simply costing me too much to seek this validation and vindication. There's a saying, "I'd rather be rich than right" and I'd rather be rich than right. I'm not a l33t hacker who can poison Google's algorithm for returns right now. I think I can be a so-so PPC player and make a return there. That's a bet I'm willing to make.

As for selling backlinks, I'm with you on this one. I'm actually trying to find link building jobs, get hired on Western salaries, and then have my Filipino contacts do the work for me (lol). Labor arbitrage baby! From being experienced in life, I bet you that those sites that won through the updates are winning big and their budgets expanded big time. That's just the nature of the beast.

 

[bernard]

He told me to just go as lean as possible to survive.

I think this is something to consider.

Personally I would not want to commit to any large scale operation that was based on SEO in any form.

Everything has a silver lining though and with AI, it's become infinitely cheaper to run an SEO side hustle. Like @CCarter mentions, plenty of people are ranking and banking with AI content.

As I see it, we're more back to the happy days of the early 2010s, churn and burn. You do whatever works for as long as it works, but you don't think your hustle is a business, it's a hustle. And a hustle can make as much money as a business and sometimes with less risk, it's just not something you can take to the bank for funding.

Edit: I am also interested to see what happens to all these "media companies" when high interest rates persist for years. Websites were an investment bubble like a lot of other things.

 

[chubes]

Call me delusional, but I think it's possible that Google will soften up a bit here soon. I've noticed a few of my (weaker) competitors who were hit really hard have completely stopped publishing. They've successfully eliminated a lot of weak sites and some people gave up.

Anyone still hanging on right now has grit and determination. And some of us have put in some serious WORK on our sites, learning marketing skills, and getting stronger. There has to be some success stories on the other side of this. I am so fucking determined to be one of them.

Put us through hell, get rid of the weak, then soften up and allow the cream to rise to the top.

Nobody wants AI answers for everything. People want to engage with other people. Everything is in flux and technology is advancing rapidly, and public opinion sways all the time.

I would have never learned all this shit I've been absorbing lately if I didn't lose my Google traffic. I would have continued to coast and gotten fucked even harder by the next update.

Again, just hopeful speculation. No doomsday from me. I'm playing to win.

 

[Zoro]

I have a few sites where I only have Fiverr links, and I'm glad that all those Fiverr gigs sent me backlink lists. So, I'm trying the method of disavowing every link from them. I will report back if it works.

 

[Smith]

TL;DR: Work hard to recover your sites and make money in the short term while simultaneously taking steps to future-proof your business.

Observation: I may be mistaken, but there seems to be a divide among the old guard in terms of how they see the current updates playing out, which is not surprising and frankly should be expected.

On the one hand, I see @CCarter and @Grind clearly on the side of (I'm paraphrasing) 'this update and most recent updates are just about backlinks and anchor text and it's possible to recover' - including recent convos in the Massive Influx of Links thread.

On the other hand, I see @Ryuzaki sharing clear thinking around the update, the algo, and HCU in the Bad SEO Advice thread - recently sharing "...there have been zero recoveries from the HCU and its predecessor YMYL/EEAT"... and guys like @bernard seem to agree.

I don't think this (or any) divide is bad. If anything, the fact that some of the most respected voices on BuSo can take different stances and deliver their thoughts in a clear, compelling, and intelligent manner is what makes this forum stand out from the other sources of SEO content around the internet.

But, when respected members of the forum are making statements that (at least on the surface) appear to contradict one another, it can leave people confused and unsure about what to do next... especially newcomers who haven't faced Google's wrath before.

So, I thought it might be worth sharing that painfully obvious fact that...

No one really knows what's happening.

But, certain people who have been in the game long enough, have seen more updates/recoveries than others, and keep an eye on large data sets to see what's happening in the SERPs can offer valuable insights to help site owners increase rankings and potentially recover by making more informed decisions.

And everyone else, who doesn't have decades of experience or networks of sites to look at, can look to the SERPs and see what Google is telling us through its actions and other people's experiences (though taken with a grain of salt).

From where I stand, I agree with both positions outlined above...

I strongly agree with Ryuzaki in terms of the transition that we're all seeing and feeling in real-time as Google/Bing move away from content-powered "search engines" to LLM-powered "answer engines"... and the fact that certain sites are dominating the SERPs even though they serve up arguably garbage content.

BUT I also strongly believe, at least in the short term, that the algorithm is a math equation waiting to be solved... which can be accomplished through assessing large data sets and shared experiences. And the type of recoveries that CCarter and Grind are talking about are possible. I've personally experienced recoveries firsthand after past updates and I see no reason to believe it's not possible this time around as well, which is why I'm pushing hard before the May update.

In fact, after writing this out.. maybe I'm wrong (always a likely outcome)... maybe these aren't conflicting positions at all. Maybe the opportunity still exists to recover and make cash in the short term by eliminating spam links and de-optimizing anchors. But also, the landscape is changing fast and site owners who have any concern about maintaining their business in the medium to long term need to stop relying on organic search traffic.

That's actually how I'm thinking about this and it's why I'm following a set of prioritized actions to not only recover my site from the last two updates but I'm also insulating my business by strengthening and introducing new channels for customer acquisition.

 

[CCarter]

"...there have been zero recoveries from the HCU and its predecessor YMYL/EEAT"

You guys aren't paying attention to what has been posted, clearly.

I give up.

 

[Smith]

You guys aren't paying attention to what has been posted, clearly.

I was quoting Ryuzaki.

As I've said, I'm following Grind's playbook to a tee. I believe recovery is possible. I'll post my screenshot after the algorithm bends in my direction.

 

[Ryuzaki]

This site wasn't hit by the HCU, which (besides December 2022) rolled out on September 14th, 2023 and finished before month's end. It appears to have been caught in the gray area of the tail end (took 26 days to roll out) of the November 2023 Core Update (not Reviews Update), which is why it popped back slightly after, and why it popped back in the March 2024 Core Update.

This gray area refers to teetering on the edge of a core update, and entirely why I put together the Kitchen Sink thread, so that you can find all the little things that are accumulating into you teetering on the brink, which can include disavowing. Whenever you see this crazy up and down, binary yes/no, traffic pattern, it's because you're teetering at the threshold on core updates.

I stand by my statement:
"...there have been zero recoveries from the HCU and its predecessor YMYL/EEAT"

It should also be noted that the volume of traffic (not the value, it's likely valuable traffic) we're talking about on that image could be the result of slipping a few positions on only a few queries, as opposed to the nearly complete decimation caused by the YMYL/HCU classifiers.

 

[Darth]

You guys aren't paying attention to what has been posted, clearly.

I give up.

That graph is all over the show. Not a good example

 

[GeorgeG]

This is the search console of a small site I have. It was hit by the medic in Aug 2018, and the last update on the articles was around the summer of 2017. I haven't touched it since. No content updates, no new backlinks, no disavows, nada. But it moves up and down w/e the guys at google move the dials in some direction. And since November last year, it seems it has been more on than off. If you want to dig into the link profile and the content, the domain is yorkie.life

Any theories?

 

[bernard]

^ Imo, that's a great example that there's simply no one reason or rhyme to this.

Why this happens above is maybe because the penalties are time based. You get hit and you might get a 1 year penalty or even a 2 year penalty. If you recall, back in the old days, we had our -1, -7, -10 page penalties.

To me, the recent penalties these last years always seemed very much like the penalties of old not the "the algo will just discount it" which Google claimed after years of Panda and Penguin. These are penalties. The goal is not to improve the SERPs by improving the algo, the goal is an extinction level event like Penguin/Panda were. Mow the lawn, cull the population.

 

[Smith]

cull the population

Not me... recovery is imminent.

I'm feeling energized after re-reading Ryuzaki's kitchen sink strategy... it reminded me that my site is fucking awesome.

It also reminded me how many people are out here cutting corners... asking how they can 80/20 his strategy... guys, it's the fucking kitchen sink strategy... there is no 80/20, that's the point.

I guess I'm built different... or maybe it's the OCD. I don't fucking cut corners, it's not who I am. And this recovery attempt is no different.

So I dug deeper into my backlink profile, looked at images, hotlinking, kept digging into GSC. I keep seeing the same shit, more spam, horrible fucking backlinks. This feels like I'm heading in the right direction.

But I have a secret... I ignore my feelings, I turn them off completely. They don't offer any value under pressure. Feelings confuse the options and make you second-guess yourself. Don't do that.

I decided weeks ago that Grind's strategy was the solution I needed. I decided if I followed it correctly and executed it perfectly it would work. Full stop. It's that fucking simple.

Worst case scenario: I waste two months of work and a couple thousand (max) and end up no worse off than I am today. Nothing worth complaining about.

Best case scenario: I've got a fucking rocket ship strapped between my legs as I tear through the SERPs and my revenue starts to skyrocket.

With that kind of potential and such limited downside... you better fucking believe I'm going all in on this strategy. ALL IN.

Aligator blood is flowing boys... unstoppable fucking energy... if you need me I'll be fueling the rocket.

 

[GeorgeG]

Yes, this is the only way to look at it. There is never just one smoking gun. That's why I am currently working in 3 main directions:

Disavowing the spam from the past 3 months, only in Semrush. I've got 25k new links from 3k domains in this short period.

Upgrading my site structure - copying the only niche site in my serps that survived.

Working hard to figure out what the fuck is going on with the content/onsite algorithm.

That last one is driving me crazy.

So, I did a little experiment. I went to reddit and posted 20 versions of a product review article I have that ranked nowhere. I wrote them naturally to w/e got me in mind, just got claude to give me 20 personas that will be interested in the review, so i can make the variations.

They Turned out different lengths, but I tried to be brief, only the most important, and in the style I would write it for Reddit. No fluff, directly, to the point, not going into any tech specs or details.

One of these short reviews ranked N1 for the product review in exactly 12 hours. Some of the others appeared in the reddit box of forums google is now showing, so I had 2 properties in the top serps already.

Then what I did is, I deleted my long an detailed review on my site and I replaced it with the reddit review that now ranked N1. I only changed the title a bit, but otherwise copy, paste.

In 24 hours, I was ranking N2 after Reddit.

I tried to get the winners almost an exact copy and do it for another product; I just changed the features a bit to match the product and the product name. Nothing.

Okay, then again, I created 10 different variations by hand and posted them on Reddit. One of them worked and went to Pos 3, but it was a very different copy from the first product. I did replace another Reddit result, though. I copied the content on my site, and I ranked N5 in 24 hours.

Now, this tells me Google has made a HUGE change in the way they evaluate on-site. How? I have no clue. I am currently doing other experiments, but for me the content at the moment is equally important as the links. If not more.

But again, this is because google does not trust my site because of something, the spam links, my structure, my other content, who knows? Because the niche site with much weaker link profile that now ranks on the top, tnaks with this huge 3000k words articles that I used to rank. But mine now are nowehre to see on page 4.

And all of this kinda confuses me. Because in the past updates, if you are penalized, you are penalized. You don't just rank at the top again by shrinking your content to a user's opinion. And I can't yet find a pattern or correlation in the 'user opinions' that get ranked.

So this one is tricky. At least I can't find the logic behind it. But its a machine, so it must have rules and logic that it follows.

 

[BakerStreet]

You guys got it. I'm rooting for you.

For me, in my niche, there's no hope. Queries that were once informational are now navigational. The google algorithm is able to understand query intent much better with LLMs. For example "How to get a driver's license" is now all gov sites and pages like "Florida guide to getting drivers licenses 2024" totally feel off of the radar.

There's no hope in my niche to get rankings, as we'll never be able to fulfill the query's intent if it's navigational. I talked to a friend in iGaming and he reported the same thing, that some informational queries became navigational after March's update.

So, yeah, if your queries are still informational, you might have a chance with cleaning up your backlink profile or doing the kitchen sink method. Good luck.

@Smith I agree with your conclusions. If you lose, you'd lose your time and investment. If you win, from experience, I know that you'd reap big since so many other people are out of the game and the jackpot would be split amongst fewer people. You got it man!

 

[BakerStreet]

From

https://twitter.com/x/status/1781020261564780716

"How Google’s Anti-Spam Works
Key points from a report by a former senior technical director in Google’s search quality team.

Evaluation by Google’s anti-spam team:
Intent: When Google’s anti-spam team evaluates potential spam, they consider the intent behind it. If they determine the intent is malicious (i.e., explicitly aimed at spamming), they apply manual penalties.
Large-scale spam detection: The team has methods to detect patterns of large-scale spam.
Justification and documentation: They internally justify and document the reasons for applying penal actions.
Division of labor: Google also uses a different team member from the anti-spam team to handle reconsideration requests, different from the one who initially issued the manual action.

All unedited generated content technically falls under “Scaled Content Abuse” and can lead to penalties.

Google is not against affiliate program sites, but when there are many of them (thousands), priority is given to those that provide original value.

“Misleading Markup” is a common reason for manual penalties and for Google to lose trust in a site’s structured data.

Honesty and admitting mistakes is the best strategy to have penalties lifted. Google operators have thousands of penalties to review, and they will not entertain any cunning.

Reasons reconsideration requests are denied:

• the issue has not been resolved (even if efforts to resolve it have begun);
• any aggression or excitement in the request, including threats to sue;
• demands to explain the reasons for penalties;
• claims that Google does not know how to do their job;
• statements like “We changed the H1 tag” etc.;
• claims like “My site is fully indexed on Bing”;
• claims like “My other sites are not penalized”—almost inviting Google to check those sites too.

Notice that Google “processed” (but not “approved”) the corrections means they are looking for other potential spam. The site’s history is tracked, so do not attempt to deceive Google; instead, clean up your entire site.

Spam using drop-domains has been known for over 20 years: Google recognizes ownership changes and has largely neutralized the effect of such domains ranking well.

Old content that should not appear in search results should be blocked from indexing."

I take that as confirmation that you'd need the kitchen sink method and completely overhaul the website to get Google to reconsider it.

 

[JOoa0ky]

lol @lilly, she was going HAM on that EEAT shit for quite a while.

It is of my opinion that you'll forever live in a world of half-truths if you drink kool aid straight from the fountain's source. Most of those in attendance are being groomed and they don't even know it.

We like to ask ourselves if G trusts our sites...

But ya know my trust rating for G right now is unbelievably fucking low.

 

[bernard]

Now, this tells me Google has made a HUGE change in the way they evaluate on-site. How? I have no clue. I am currently doing other experiments, but for me the content at the moment is equally important as the links. If not more.

I have some thoughts about why that would work, but it's very much speculation. However, when writing for Reddit or writing as a talented journalist, the writing style is very different than when an AI writes or when an average writer does.

Knowledge of the topic, combined with authenticity, it shows in the choice of words, structure and anecdotes. These are things that can be contextually analyzed. We've talked for a long time, about EEAT, how a personal writing style was preferred vs a neutral one. Authority Hackers stressed it a lot.

When you intimately know a topic, the conversation flows freely, you are not holding back. You are standing by it, using "I" instead "some say" and you make impromptu comparisons, you inject humor, etc. When you write about a topic you don't know about, you struggle to do these things, because you simply don't know.

Do I believe you can train a machine to look for this? Yes. Here's what ChatGPT says:

1. First-Person Pronouns: The use of first-person pronouns (I, me, my, we, us, our) is a strong indicator that the writer is sharing personal experiences or opinions.
2. Narrative Style: Text that includes narratives or anecdotes, especially those detailing specific events, dates, locations, or personal interactions, suggests firsthand experience.
3. Detailed Descriptions: Detailed descriptions of sensory experiences (sights, sounds, smells), emotions, or thoughts can imply personal involvement.
4. Temporal References: References to specific times or periods ("last year", "when I was in college") in relation to the topic might indicate personal experience.
5. Direct Speech: Use of direct speech or quoted dialogue can be a sign of personal recounting of conversations or interactions.
6. Expertise Indicators: Phrases like "in my experience", "I have found", or "as someone who has" suggest that the writer is drawing from personal knowledge or professional experience related to the topic.
7. Emotional Language: Emotional or evaluative language that reflects personal feelings (happy, sad, frustrating, rewarding) about the topic could indicate personal experience.
8. Unique or Insider Knowledge: Mention of details not widely known or that are typically only understood by someone with direct experience might signal personal involvement.
9. Contrast with General Knowledge: Content that contrasts personal views or experiences with widely accepted facts or general public opinion can highlight personal experience.
10. Causality and Personal Consequence: Texts where the writer discusses personal changes or consequences as a result of engaging with the topic suggest direct involvement.

Even if you only look at it from a link perspective, the personal writing style simply gets more links over time. People are far more likely to link to personal branded websites than sites that are not personally branded.

 

[JOoa0ky]

The shake-up seems to have begun stabilizing on 4/13 recovering lost rankings. Dare I say it'll probably finish soon.

 

[Smith]

The shake-up seems to have begun stabilizing on 4/13 recovering lost rankings. Dare I say it'll probably finish soon.

Almost 10 days later... how are you trending?

 

[Grind]

I give up.

Feels...

 

[bernard]

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/23/goo...warns-employees-of-new-operating-reality.html

A lot of words from Google second in line.

I must say Google under Pichai and this guy Raghavan, who I hadn't heard about, do seem to have taken the company in an entirely different direction. I don't think Page and Brin can be involved at all.

The overall feel I get is Google just turning into any other bottomline company, caring more about quarterly nets than growing through innovation. The question is if they're looking to become Microsoft or Yahoo. I feel as if they hugely overestimate the quality of their search engine now. Even Elon Musk complained publicly now. People are saying Bing is better and for many searches, I honestly agree.

I don't think it's inconceivable that Google could lose maybe 10-20% within the next 5 years to other search engines.

 

[BakerStreet]

Feels...

I'm half way through that webcast of MyFitFriend and I think you're right. From comparing the sites that rank in my niche now, it must be backlinks that rank. The sites that do rank are those shit ones from 15 years ago that did no SEO at all for 15 years. Now they're ranking with 59 backlinks since everyone else got penalized for doing SEO! ha! Good find!

 

[Darth]

I must say Google under Pichai and this guy Raghavan, who I hadn't heard about, do seem to have taken the company in an entirely different direction. I don't think Page and Brin can be involved at all.

The overall feel I get is Google just turning into any other bottomline company, caring more about quarterly nets than growing through innovation. The question is if they're looking to become Microsoft or Yahoo. I feel as if they hugely overestimate the quality of their search engine now. Even Elon Musk complained publicly now. People are saying Bing is better and for many searches, I honestly agree.

https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/