Which 9-5 would you prefer while building on the side? Developer or Marketer?

[Steve Brownlie]

Writing this stuff down is important - pen and paper - it's powerful because you can see yourself.

I couldn't agree with this more. Since I started having a notepad and a bunch of different coloured pens on my desk and with me when I travel at all times my clarity of thought and ability to revisit past mistakes/decisions and actually learn from them has improved massively. I wish I'd listened to people who share this advice sooner.

Seen it happen many times, though it usually requires something like 10 years of work experience before you've proven yourself as an expert that people will hire part-time (but pay close to full time).

I wouldn't say 10 years. I sold my first web design project before we got started on Reach Creator with no portfolio and having just built one site for myself, for example. And that paid for 2 months of living at the time. You're probably right if you want someone to give you a contract and guarantee to pay you every month, of course, but if you just want someone to casually give you a couple days freelancing and see how you go a lot more will just come down to you convincing them you can do it and actually not being rubbish the first couple of days...

 

[Grim]

I think a 9-5s is a waste of time if you are looking to become a serious entrepreneur.

9-5s take energy and it's very rare that a side-project gets worked on with the same energy as the 9-5. So most people that want to play it safe, which is what you are trying to do, dissipate their main energy on their 9-5, and then try to catch up on the weekend or whenever they have free time for their "side-hustle".

99.999% of these 9-5s never get their side-hustle off the ground or can give it the energy required when their competitions do it 40-120 hours a week. So if that 1st side-project fails, they most likely will give up. OR maybe they continue the side-projects route - #2 project fails, then #3 project fails. At some point they'll give up and focus on their 9-5.

The only time I've seen any serious success with people and within myself is when I dedicated 100% of my energy towards a project, especially in the beginning getting it off the ground. Switch from one project to another during the day gets draining.

I KNOW this blueprint of doing a side-project while working the 9-5 is just a fantasy that is pushed into the ether by the 4-hour work week gang (another fantasy).

It's similar to OnlyFans for women. Are there women that make tons of money on OnlyFans? Yes. And they are mostly celebrities or individuals with a massive audience already. Bhad Bhabie (Cash Me Out side girl), made a $1 million in 6 hours. She had an audience.

Is a random girl from your hometown going to do that? NO, just no. When you look at the stats the top 10% of OnlyFans models make about $1,000 a month. The bottom 90% - make less than $100 per month. What's the difference - top earners have an audience or put in more energy. But regardless of the stats and reality there are teenage girls waiting to turn 18 years old so they can start an OnlyFans cause of the fantasy of bringing in big money that's being pushed into the ether by the Instagram live-style crowd.

The point is there are "Quick money", "Entrepreneur", "OnlyFans" and other fantasies being pushed around that things are easy to get off the ground and running. It is to the point that people think they can create a business on the weekend, while working a 9-5 and turn and compete against businesses that have employees that work 40-120 hours a week, per employee.

If you are looking for a hobby for your "side business", that's fine. But it's not very realistic that you can put in the serious energy needed to take on your competition when splitting your energy.

If you are going to do something go all in, otherwise you are just wasting your time. If you believed in your side-project, go get a bank loan or raise money from family and friends, then dedicate 18-24 hours a day for 6 months to a year to get it off the ground. Otherwise just get a regular job and drop the entrepreneur fantasy.

Reading your response it sounds like you've already made up your mind, this post is really for the people reading this and trying to figure out their path in life. If you don't have enough energy for something, it ain't going to work out 100% of the time.

Great point you make with the energy and focus, I couldn't agree more. Side-hustles are destined to fail, unfortunately, but that's what separates the winners from the losers I guess ,the guts to go all-in.

 

[secretagentdad]

The C in C carter stands for Coach carter.
Coach Carter Peak Carter.

 

[eliquid]

I'm from Pakistan myself, no offense taken BTW @eliquid, although I would tell you that Paki isn't short for Pakistani, it's a slur word used commonly in the U.K. to racially discriminate South Asians - mostly Pakistanis

Thanks.

I just want to let you know... even though Im 45, i don't live in the UK so I didn't know Paki was a slur word. I've never even heard anyone say Paki in my neck of the woods. Although most people where I live don't even know where Pakistan even is.

I honeslty was just trying to shorthand write it, instead of writing Pakistani.

But thanks for telling me. I will make sure to not use it again

For sure – to an extent. Coding is a commodity and everyone and their mother is lining up to perform slave labor. I get that.

This is why I said at the beginning of my post, you have to take this high level as there would be lots of assumptions and generalizations to be made.

But this first statement of yours, If you really read it and understand it, why would you still choose dev work then?

If you are entering into a commodity market, and you know it, you know you will always have to compete on price. That is what comes with commodities.

Just this sentence alone, you posted, should show you dev loses out.

That said, I don't think ChatGPT can replace a senior dev yet, nor can a 3rd-world. Have you seen some cheap $15/HR Indian's code? It sucks balls. Like, horrifyingly bad. Fine for an MVP but for any org with a semblance of quality control, it's a no-go. I wouldn't put that code into production, not with PII nor sensitive business info involved.

I've been asking ChatGPT moderately advanced questions for a popular backend framework and it provides the wrong solution every single time. It has no way to think abstractly, although it does enhance my workflow. You need to know which questions to ask it, which only an experienced dev is able to do.

Sure, both could replace clueless juniors without a second thought.

This was the same argument people (including me) tried to make about AI just 12 months ago. Look where we are now.

They said that about robots in Fast Food places... and today I ordered with AI at the drive thru window with Rallys and a robot prepared most of my food. A real person took my card and handed me my drink, but almost everything else was robotic.

You may think ChatGPT ( or AI ) wont replace coders today, but what about 12 months from now?

Also, most customers don't care how clean your code is. They just care it works and does what you promised/what they wanted. They could care 2 shits less how messy it is. Only other devs care about how messy your code is, the person paying the bill almost never does ( unless that person is a dev too ). So in this aspect, the $15 indian still wins out

Yep, but nothing preventing a dev from learning marketing. Most just don't want to and are content with their 9-5. Is a 9-5 marketer a better marketer than a former dev with a growing startup? Don't think so.

You're asking if a marketer, that does this for 8 hours a day professionally, is better than a former dev with a growing startup.. but you said Don't think so.

Are you nuts?

Former dev = most likely someone that doesnt know much marketing. Also running a growing start up so you are doing a bunch of business and entrepreneur stuff also. How much time you think you have left over to "learn" marketing in the day now? 1-2 hours?

And you think you would be better?

That's like saying someone with prior football skills now running a growing startup will be a better golfer than someone that golfs 9-5 every day, and has been for a couple of years.

I think you should really rethink this statement.

No bad will, but this doesn't make sense man.

Why would you want to is my question 1 entry-level dev salary at a good company = 3 entry-level marketing salaries

What good is the dev salary if you are laid off in 4 months when the company outsources to India or even Hungary?

Or in 12 months ChatGPT or some other AI is good enough that they only need a senior Dev to prompt the code base and has no need for entry level devs?

Also, I've seen plenty of entry level dev jobs come no where close to marketing jobs. But I guess this depends on what you do and where you live.

Also, I know someone that has 3 senior level Director/CMO marketing positions at the same time, Im sure he is banking pretty hard over a senior Dev with 1 job.

This isn't about jobs though, this is about options. Which one gives you more options?

Why do devs get paid more than marketers then? (aside from director-level and above maybe)

I wrote about this above, but I don't see that for what I do, and where I live.

Plus who wants to be entry level anyway?

Sales, you're absolutely correct. In marketing, only the superstars get paid bank. And most of them work for themselves.

I'm not so sure about that. From my perspective, only the superstar Devs get paid bank. So that would be equal statements here. Are you going to be a superstar dev though?

But the working for themselves. I would disagree. There are a ton of superstars that want nothing to do with running their own business, chasing down invoices, figuring out taxes and legal, and a host of other "business" stuff.

Also a large % of them that do go their own, don't make it in business. They then return to the W2 world. They are still a superstar, but they aren't a business leader.

Let me ask you this though: all things equal, who is going to win out in the end? The marketer with dev skills or the marketer without any complimentary skills, all else equal? You make it sound like product doesn't matter at all; of course marketing is important but it's WAY easier to market a great product than a shitty one, no matter how good of a marketer you are. Would you trade away your dev skills, or do they come in handy? Almost everyone on this forum who is successful knows how to code to an extent.

Well, your title was Dev OR Marketer... not someone with both skills, so this is a turning of the tables now and not what my advice was based on originally as mine was the "OR" part.

Product does matter.

But all things equal, there is a reason why shitty products can sell billions of dollars. The reason is marketing.

I know a lot of excellent products though, barely hanging on by a string. And it's because they have no marketing.

In the end, its about options. The options are more stacked for marketing to make money, than in dev..

Also, I would advise you on false beliefs about this forum. There are not a lot of successful people on this forum. Success is a relative word and many people have false online avatars living a fake it till you make lifestyle.

If they are successful, it's not because they can code though. Coding didn't make them successful. Coding wasn't the catalyst.

 

[BrandEngineer]

But this first statement of yours, If you really read it and understand it, why would you still choose dev work then?

Honestly, I was probably just trying to justify all the time I spent going down the wrong path the past few years.

I've known deep down for some time now that this wasn't the right path for me. My soul was screaming it to me and I didn't listen. I'm not a naturally talented dev by any stretch of the imagination. But like many, I fell victim to the sunk cost fallacy and more importantly, my pride and ego. This thread and the subsequent rationalizations were the last remnants of that cope wearing off.

On the bright side, it wasn't all a waste. I know enough now to build out MVPs and outsource software effectively which is the main reason I got started in the first place many years ago. Just got lost in the weeds along the way.

All I can say is I feel a huge burden lifted off my shoulders, thanks in part to the advice I got in this thread.

What do you want to create?

Do you have an idea or are you looking at end goal of the lifestyle?

On your old projects - why did you fail? You should do a de-briefing of what went wrong and why.

9/10 times - failed projects on my end didn't have enough marketing pushes. New revenue and new money would have solved a lot of problems. When doing a debrief I think about the good and bad choices, what could have been better, what was the lesson here. Next time how do I overcome it.

Writing this stuff down is important - pen and paper - it's powerful because you can see yourself.

Talking outloud or talking to someone about this to get their perspective is important.

Also having a mentor that's in the current position you WANT to be in helps you navigate the trenches.

Priority #1 is to reflect on these questions in isolation for a bit then decide on a path forward. I have what I believe are some solid software ideas that require additional market research before jumping in.

In the meantime, I'm going to go full bore on looking for client work and uncovering needs that way.

Yeah, same story. Nearly all my projects died due to a lack of marketing pushes. 1:3 ratio of building vs. promoting from here on out. That or a lack of market research and clear target market.